Homecoming Wiki talk:Main Discussion

A few thoughts about stuff I'm conflicted about

Okay, I freely admit that I'm really stumped about a couple of things, especially about how I want them to appear in the wiki.

First up would have to be the Villain Group articles. I just can't make up my mind how I want them presented. Right now, I'm torn between three options. From an outline view, here they are:

Overview
Minions
- Villain Class
- - Villain Name
- - Villain Name
- - ...
Lieutenants
- Villain Class
- - Villain Name
- - Villain Name
- - ...
...

A Villain Class is a subset of villains within a villain group. For example, the Circle of Thorns has several villain classes: guardians, demons, hordelings, mages, specters, possesseds, and probably several others I'm leaving out. The Council is another villain group with subclasses, such as Penumbrae, Penumbrae Elite, Vortex Cors, Equinoxes, Galaxies, etc.

However, this presents a problem. Where do you put enemies that have no subclass? For example, the Council Ascendants have no subclass. If this standard is adopted, then you'll have to either create a category just for one villain type or lump them all under an "Other" category. (Any other ideas?)

Also, some villain groups don't have subclasses. For example, the Clockwork aren't really neatly divisible like that. There aren't different classes of cogs, sprockets, and oscillators. Some really small villain groups such as The Infected just have five or so different villain types. How will they be formatted?

Consider this an open call for ideas. Either post a reply here or e-mail me at [email protected] with your comments.

--TonyV 16:11, 27 Jan 2006 (CST)

---

Well, Tony already knows my views, but I'll repeat them here :D I am not a fan of "Other " or "Misc". My favorite format so far is to make a sublevel only if it's needed for that type of entry. I tried out a bunch of things when making the Coucil page, and things are going to be just as bad when it comes to Crey, Nemesis, Rikti, Freakshow, etc (oh, man, I just remembered Prisoners, lots of types there that are just some proper name!). A lot of small variations, and also singular types. Tsoo for example, lots of enforcers, yellow ink men, red ink men, but only one type of green ink men. And Lieuts and bosses usually are singular.

I don't think there's a simple way to work through it. The data set we're working with is just too messy :D I think there should be 2 formats, a simple one for the small groups with just singular types, and a more complex one for the messy groups (Council, Tsoo, Crey, etc).

--StarGeek 17:31, 27 Jan 2006 (CST)

So will the Freakshow entry be the "official" format now? I like. It'll work well the big nasty messy groups. But isn't it missing a minion category near the beginning? :D --StarGeek 22:37, 28 Jan 2006 (CST)

---

Hi!

Just posted at the Freakshow section about this same issue...I tried the subclasses idea as well, but abandoned it when realized it wouldn t help with certain groups: many villain groups would simply have too subsections: it was hard to find a mob easily, so it was better to make something simpler than that, yet still complete.

As I mentioned in the Freakshow discussion, it is my theory that the game presents the mobs and factions as evolving entities. Clockwork, let's say:

-Gear (Underling): basic model

-Cog/Sprocket (minion): same model as Gear...even the same attacks!

-Oscilator (minion): Cog/Sprocket able to fly...same attacks than before.

-Knights (Lieutenants): Still same model than a cog, with one or another attack from the same powerset added.

-Bosses:

Duke: still very similar in apparence and powers to the cog/sprocket: more damaging attacks, but that´s all.

Prince: same attacks than a Duke, plus Pummel. Bigger model and leaves gears behind

...and that's all, folks! =) The "Charged Bolts + Charged Brawl + Something Else" model repeats itself from the start to the end. The madness follows a method. It's much easier than it looks! =)

And Prisoners, since Star mentioned them:

Minion: Rock + Knife / Pipe / Brawl

Lieutenant: Revolver. No melee attacks.

Boss: Shotgun or Submachinegun. No melee attacks.

And a whooping list of 31 named mobs, that´s true =P.

My theory: just follow the order of the game spawn in missions and things will solve by themselves! =)

--Yakovlev 23:23, 28 Jan 2006 (CST)

---

I'm actually considering something else as well, maybe something along the lines as what I've done with the powersets articles I've been tweaking lately. Check out the Energy Melee article for reference.

What I did is to have them all listed in detail alphabetically. This would mix minions, lieutenants, bosses, giant monsters, archvillains, underlings, elite bosses... the whole shebang. See the Powers section of the Energy Melee article; it's all neat and alphabetical. Each would have a detailed entry in the list, including description, powers, classificaiton, and so on.

Then at the top of each villain group article, at the top of the page would be an index that could group and classify the enemies in a simple list, with links into the article to the alphabetized section.

I'll try to throw together an example today sometime to show what I'm talking about. It's probably a lot easier to show through demonstration than to describe.

--TonyV 08:52, 29 Jan 2006 (CST)

Picture Size

Hey Tony, what would be considered optimal picture size for uploading, both in dimensions and file size. I certainly don't want to overrun your web space. --StarGeek 13:21, 28 Jan 2006 (CST)

---

Typically, I size character portraits to be 300x700. If that's too slim, I go for 350x700 or even 400x700. There are a few exceptions for oddly-shaped things, such as the picture of the Golden Roller, which is 450x450. Those are really weird cases, though. Character portraits I upload are stored in .jpg format (.pngs are just too durn big, even highly compressed). Typically these files are around 30k - 40k, give or take a little. The larger ones are maybe 50k or even 60k for a very few.

Iconic images, such as powers icons, inspirations icons, badges, etc. are in .png format at full size, because they're really small and the format allows transparency, which means I don't have to go in and format the background of all of them.

Maps are really big, but there aren't that many of them. (And I haven't uploaded them all yet.) The Skyway City map, for example, is 82k, and is 488x750, which is a cropped (to remove the border) full-sized copy.

So far, I'm still good on space. If the size of the wiki doubles, I'll start getting a little worried, but will still have enough room. If need be, I can make further arrangements to accommodate more images if need be, but I think I've still got some time left before I have to think about that. Worst-case scenario (or actually, best-case, since it means that the wiki will have become huge) is that I can bump up the account type to accomodate more information and images. I guess what it boils down to regarding adding images is don't go too wild spamming full-sized screenshots or anything, but don't hesitate to add cool pictures.

--TonyV 08:41, 29 Jan 2006 (CST)

I got a webhost if you need space -- there's oodles. -- Taxibot Yellow 21:10, 29 Jan 2006 (CST)

Forums?

Quick question: Do you think that this type of discussion page is enough to have meaningful discourse on stuff, or should I set up a (some?) phpBB forums for it? --TonyV 08:53, 29 Jan 2006 (CST)

I like the phpbb forum setup and would certainly use it. But ATM it might be too much, since you appear to have only 3 (edit oops, forgot about Taxibot) other dedicated people making entries. --StarGeek 11:57, 29 Jan 2006 (CST)

We clearly need a Taxibots entry. -- Taxibot Yellow 17:02, 30 Jan 2006 (CST)

What, a link on every page isn't enough :D (Kidding!) --StarGeek 20:26, 30 Jan 2006 (CST)

I would have, but seriously, I don't want this to turn into a supergroup database. For individual players, I suggest using the Crey Industries Hero Threat Database. For groups, well, I suggest the official Team Sites portal. For player-created content such as fiction, I can't help but recommend donning a reporter's hat and writing for the Paragon City Free Press !

And StarGeek is right; I have them as a link on the left of every page. :-) Oh, and when are you going to create your user page!!?

---TonyV 10:00, 31 Jan 2006 (CST)

I just noticed that you have forums off your main PC Free Press page. If you wanted to add forums, wouldn't just adding a Wiki Discussion section there be better? I've found that it's a big enough pain to update just one forum (esp if there's a fair amount of Mods), and two would drive me insane! Well, more insane :D --StarGeek 16:58, 4 Feb 2006 (CST)

Helpful Hints

Here's something I just figured out. If you want to add a new entry, you can just pick the edit link nearest the place you want to insert it, and put it before or after, as appropriate. That way you don't have to use the edit tab at the top to open a really long document in order to add something in the middle. This entry is an example. I clicked on the Forums? edit link and just typed this part afterwards. --StarGeek 20:31, 30 Jan 2006 (CST)

Help!

Well, oddly enough, I'm in need of help =P

Just did the whole Vahzilok section today. As you can see, it's complete and ready for release. Much to my dismay, I can't make it show up in the Enemies section, in the "V" subsection, where it should be.

And rather than try and hit blindly, breaking God-knows-what in my efforts, I tought it would be best to come and ask how can I do it. Any ideas?

BTW, I have noticed that the Freakshow section done by Tony isn't showing up either.

--Yakovlev 07:40, 31 Jan 2006 (CST)

Are you talking about showing up in the Enemies category? At the bottom of the article, simply enter a line that says [[Category:Enemies]] to enter it in the category. I just did it for the Vahzilok and the Freakshow articles, so they're in there now.

By the way, to actually link to a category (like I did with the "Enemies category" link above), put a colon before the word Category, like this: [[:Category:Enemies|Enemies category]]. And to actually show the double brackets and everything, like I did to show the wiki markup just then, enclose the whole think in <nowiki></nowiki> tags. Just a few marking-up tips I've picked up! :-)

--TonyV 09:53, 31 Jan 2006 (CST)

Great! Now I know how to do it then! Thank you! =D

--Yakovlev 10:01, 31 Jan 2006 (CST)

Power Icons Update

I compared the Power Icons to the newest available on Test, and found 4 new icons:

• Temporary TargetedBuffDamage.png;
• Temporary TargetedBuffDefense.png
• Temporary TargetedHeal.png
• TargetedPBAoEConfuse.png

That brings the total number of power icons to 908 and I verifed that all the names of the icons online match what's in the data files (except WarriorsChallenge, which is Warrior'sChallenge in the files). Whether the pictures match or not, I'm not that crazy enough to double check :D. --StarGeek 16:50, 31 Jan 2006 (CST)

Yeah, I left out the apostrophe because I didn't want to clutter up the URLs with ugly %-- codes. Thanks for uploading the other four. I've been meaning to run a diff on the files for a while now, but I've been pretty busy in a whole bunch of different ways lately. --TonyV 23:06, 31 Jan 2006 (CST)

Sorted Icon Test Page

I've created a test page (since deleted, see below) for my icon sorting project, and need some feedback on it. Yes, it's ugly at the moment, but I wanted to get some feedback before I fiddle with it some more. --StarGeek 19:38, 31 Jan 2006 (CST)

The link's dead. Have you moved it already? Are you just using the Category page now? --TonyV 14:10, 4 Feb 2006 (CST)

Yep, my bad (note to self, remember What Links Here link). I deleted the test when I put up all the pages. I was still trying to figure out the best way of setting up categories for it. So check out the Icons Outer Ring Key and make some alterations to it. I think the language I used could be cleaned up a bit. --StarGeek 16:44, 4 Feb 2006 (CST)

Oh, and I just realized... Sorry for cluttering up the urls with the ugly %-- codes. I was just thinking along the lines of what I've seen on Wikipedia. I didn't even notice the urls until too late. --StarGeek 16:53, 4 Feb 2006 (CST)

How odd...

Well, I can't see the Coralax section I did this evening in the enemies category, nor even the coments I made at the Nemesis section...nor the changes StarGeek did at the Nemesis page, either.

Even better: every time I go to the Enemies index, it says I'm not logged in...if I go to any article, it says I'm logged...

Just checked the Coralax article and everything seems all right, link included. Can´t imagine why it's not showing up... nor why its happening all that... :-?

Tried refreshing the page, but it hasn't helped...

Any ideas?

--Yakovlev 13:26, 1 Feb 2006 (CST)

Well, solved it...or almost. If I dont force it to refresh via CTRL+ F5, it doesn't bother to show me the changes... It wasn't happening before.

Any particular reasons for this? it's a site's issue or my computer's issue? :-?

--Yakovlev 13:37, 1 Feb 2006 (CST)

I dunno, everything looks to be working fine to me. I see the article on the Coralax and your comments in the Nemesis article. Maybe something got cached crazy, either on your end or the wiki's. --TonyV 14:08, 4 Feb 2006 (CST)

What do you want to see?

When I first started setting up the wiki, I started by documenting a little bit of everything. I consciously jumped all over the place. Contacts, powersets, history, badges, zones... You name it, I touched it. I did that for several reasons. I wanted to show everyone examples of what a fully populated wiki looked like, it's how I think (I'm a very stream-of-consciousness kind of person), I wanted to establish some formats, I wanted to provide the most common useful information first, and so on. The sacrifice I made is that I didn't really go all out on any specific category. There's a wide variety of information, but nothing's particularly deep or complete.

Don't get me wrong, I really like what's written by myself and everyone else, but now, I'm thinking I'd like to start delving into a specific area to make it as complete as possible. I'm not asking anyone else to do this, though it looks like some have made some really, really nice in-depth contributions to the enemy groups. It also doesn't mean that I won't still write articles on all sorts of stuff. It's more of an area of concentration for me going forward.

So what I'd like to ask is this, what do you want to see more of? What do you think would be particularly useful for people and get more folks here? Here are some obvious options for topics that I feel need to be fleshed out, at the expense of a lot of time that could be spent scratching a lot of other surfaces:

• Badges (Best example: Healing Node Badge)
• Contacts (Best example: Kirsten Woods)
• Enemy Groups (Best example: Skulls)
• Powersets (Best example: Energy Melee)
• City zones (Best example: Skyway City)
• Cleanup (i.e. General formatting consistency, template development and usage, etc.)
• Meta Documentation (i.e. Help files about the wiki itself)
• Special Events (Ghost ship, Steel Canyon fires, etc.)
• Task Forces/Trials (Best example: Virgil Tarikoss

Anyway, let me know your thoughts!

Hi!

Well, the way I see it and In My Humble Opinion...

• Visits: I wouldn´t even think about that yet. If people goes to a site, it's because the site has exclusive or very useful content. Put content in a site, add a link to the official site or to your sig and if the site is good, visits skyrocket. For now, at least for me, it's all about work and adding content: IMHO, the Wiki does not have any spectacular or unique content. Yet =). Indeed, I'd be surprised if I could finish putting in the site all the CoH info I have stored in my HD before I7 is released.
  

(And yes, I know: this is a common effort and people and visitors could contribute, but let's face it: most people likes to go to a site and read info, not type it. Those who work hard to build a site such as StarGeek or you, are a minority...Or at least that has been my experience in the Net so far.
On the other hand, once the site becomes popular and full of info, everyone will start to write on it and put notes and info in this or that section...wait and see! =) )

That said:

• Enemies section is still going to grow a lot. Expect it to be nearly the double size than it is now, since key groups haven't even been mentioned yet: Rikti, Carnies, Praetorians...there is still a lot of work to do. I'd say it could be ready in two weeks...if I keep the pace =)

• Contacts: I have a complete list of those as well, but for now I'm focusing on Enemies. Something interesting would be a graphic/picture/diagram showing who introduces you to what contact and such. Also, it would be very interesting to develop a section about missions and how to solve them (example: Hunt 25 Lost in Terra Volta, or Defeat 10 Trolls in Red River), since no other sites have done this, and some missions are universally hatred, and often deadly if you don't know how to solve them (example: Defeat X Carnies in Peregrine Isle): It would be useful, and can be done with just a couple of comments for such missions =)

• Maps and badges are, again IMHO, a lost battle: Vidiotmaps has such an ammount of resources devoted to that aspect of the game that I can´t imagine a site better than that. I'm not saying that the Wiki should ignore those sections, but being already covered in other site they should be a low priority: I doubt the Wiki can say something that hasn´t already been said in that other site, since they have done such an excellent work =)

• Special Events should have guides and map images (example: Lusca's spawn points). That would definitively help.

• Cleanup can be done in any moment. I agree we should establish some general rules to avoid having everyone working with his own system, that would drive to endless editing =P

• Task Forces and Trials: IIRC, Nofuture site already had an excellent database of those. Same case as maps and badges: they should be added, but, IMHO, not a priority.

That said, I plan to do something like this:

-Enemies: every group, every being, every attack (well, at least the ones I have, that's it! =P)
-Elite Bosses and Archvillains: adding links to the already existing EBs and AVs in the Enemies section, and adding extra info as needed.
-Contacts and missions: adding what you guys leave for me! =D

And that's it. =) Please tell me what are you guys focusing in, or if we can help each other focusing our efforts in an specific area. For now, I still have plenty of content to put in =)

Oh, and here are a couple of crazy ideas I had some time ago:

-Weapons gallery: I have taken SSs of almost every weapon in game. Some, such as the CoT Staffs are worth to see. Some others, like the heavy pistol, are based in real life models. Anyways, something curious and unique to have. My only worry is the space it can take, but I'm sure the size of the pictures could be adapted to the needs =)

-NPC Files: You don't realize the ammount of info Cryptic has put out on enemies who aren´t even in-game yet until you put it all together. The Center is a good example of it: they have already released so many info about him that it is not even funny. I have started to collect info on beings, organizations and whatever other thing I can find and put it together in archives and files. Results are interesting in several cases, especially for a storyline fan such as me! =D

I hope it can be done in a future...Please tell me what do you think about it, and what are you focusing on, or if I'm needed in any other areas than the ones I mentioned. If not, back to Enemies section! Home, sweet home! =)

Yak

--212.59.206.95 18:33, 4 Feb 2006 (CST)